Behind a cut for religious education...

[sildil]

In my happy clappy church days (yes, don't laugh, I DID attend several incarnations of a large, independent, charismatic, falling down on the floor at times, dancing in the aisles church in south west London) there were in fact several ways that one could bitch, be spiteful and pass judgement on others, and trust me, no-one is as judgemental as a rabid happy-clappy churchgoer.

Obviously we weren't supposed to, oh no, that was definitely against the spirit of the original founder, but it was amazing just how much could be got away with under the guise of 'helpfulness' or 'concern'.

'Shall I pray for you?' could strike fear into the strongest of hearts, if said in a certain way that meant 'I think you have a problem even if you don't and I am bloody well going to make sure you do have by the time I am finished'.

And then there was gossip by prayer circle. 'Let's pray for our sister who has been struggling with her spitefulness and dependence issues who we are not going to name because that's not christian but she's sitting over there in the corner looking angry and spiteful'. All heads turn and nod wisely or smugly depending on their feelings for said victim.

Or; *person affects concerned expression* 'I heard that something was wrong with /mutual friend/ and wondered if I could help or pray for them?' In other words, 'dish the dirt, come on, you KNOW you want to,' to which the answer was either a superior, 'no, that's OK, the pastor knows about it and we are dealing with it' (ie; 'you, you lesser mortal, as if you are going to be included in amongst the illuminati' or, 'oh thank you, yes he's been struggling with /name problem/ for so long and every little helps' ie; 'at bloody last someone has asked me and I can gossip about it and please do spread the word.' ).

This doesn't just happen in church of course, it happens wherever there is a group of people in close proximity be it a religious group, a political party, an action group or even, dare I say it, a Live Journal.

I think I'll leave it with James:

'Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark...with the tongue we praise our Lord and Father and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness, out of the same mouth come praise and cursing....can both fresh water and salt flow from the same spring?' (James 3:5, 3:9-11)

Comments

[marchwarden23.livejournal.com]

Nothing like a big dose of self-righteousness to inflate that teeny tiny ego and make one feel like they did their good deed for the day by "praying for you". No thanks, that kind of helpfulness is nothing shy of politics and venom best directed at their own shortcomings.
I can see why you left that kind of jackassery faaaaaar behind.


Pic related.

[sildil]

*Howls* I adore it!

[tolliel.livejournal.com]

Well said, Sil. I have seen that holier than thou attitude so much. The false concern, the waiting expectantly to get a bit of the dirt of a person.

Then at the end, the "That will never happen to me, my family.. we are too good" *snort*

the faithful church lady who just heard something good

[marchwarden23.livejournal.com]

Oh, and...
Such a thing happening on Live Journal? The hell you say!

[tolliel.livejournal.com]

*howls* I shouoldn't be laughing but it is just so true

[sildil]

Oh yeah, I think I should have a bottle of those on the desk!

[sildil]

Isn't it?

[sildil]

Oh yeah, lovely pic and just right too!

[tolliel.livejournal.com]

Exactly! And if they were on a church pew...

[chloe-amethyst.livejournal.com]

One of the reasons I stopped being involved in my church (mainstream United Methodist) even before I considered turning to paganism was about a meeting I attended of the United Methodist Women. I was a board member and we were voting that night on how to allocate some monies earned by fundraising. One very godly woman--and I use that in the best since because she truly embodied all the good things that Christ taught--suggested a chartity she had worked with that supported children whose parents were incarcerated. The charity provided them counseling and mentoring, food or medicine if they had no money because of the incarceration, and so forth. I thought it was a wonderful idea.

But when it came to a vote, the other women refused to allocate to that charity because their parents were criminals, and they voiced their disgust with that idea and those people. Instead, they chose to give the money to the church to buy some new gold-plated candlesticks. I was absolutely outraged, even cried over it on the way home, and that was my initial break with the church.

However, I suppose I should have been more "christian" and forgiven them. Ah, well.

Of course I suppose the worst is people who proclaim against others for their being judgemental but who are incredibly judgemental themselves, sometimes in the next breath. We all know those types and have probably done it ourselves. :-)

[sildil]

Yes I've seen that sort of thing as well, it's very dispiriting and certainly not in the spirit of what should happen.

Forgiving someone is one thing, but that doesn't mean condoning the sin in doing so. People are fallible and human and fuck up for all sorts of reasons, and generally most people try their best to be nice, not gossip, be supportive, 'do the right thing', and all of us are products of our culture and parental influences for good or bad, so forgiving the women for being small minded and ignorant is quite possible and probably not a bad idea, but forgiveness isn't the same as ignoring bad behaviour or narrowmindedness.

And yes, I've known people like the latter, and yeah, almost certainly done it myself on more than one occasion, but I think the critical difference is being aware that you aren't perfect, you aren't going to get it right and that if and when you are wrong and you do misjudge someone that you admit to it and try and make amends.

I think not all judgement is wrong all the time either, sometimes a bit of clear-headed, thoughtful judgement or analysis is very helpful, BUT it should be between the two or three people concerned, that's the point I wanted to make in particular. Sneaky 'gossip by prayer circle' or friends list or whatever doesn't do anyone any good at all.

I think I'd better get off my soap box now! *bows and dismantles it, dodging the overripe tomatoes at the same time*

[chloe-amethyst.livejournal.com]

Oh heavens, I'm not throwing any tomatoes! I very much liked and agreed with your post and cared only to share my similar experience in a mainstream church. It's a very good topic for us all to wrap our heads around sometimes and I was very glad to read your thoughts as you made excellent points with much clarity. I'm sorry if it at all sounded like it was contradictory to your post, because I really agree with what you wrote and thought it was excellent. :-)

You are absolutely right about judgement being a useful too sometimes. I certainly use it to disassociate with people who I'm pretty sure I would clash with because of their past behavior--something I've used regarding the friending problem on LJ. And I wouldn't be able to get this divorce if I couldn't make some clearer judgements about my hopefully-soon-to-be-ex and only blamed myself for everything. Judgement is an excellent tool. I should have clarified and explained I meant the more petty kind of judgement that is based purely on speculation, like the rotten things I assume about my neighbors (shame on me), or assuming a young girl is a slut because she wears large hoop earrings (met a lady last week who believe that), or that all slashers must be child abusers, or my personal most hated--all fat people are ugly and lazy. So yes, I agree with you there very much! :-)

Excellent points you made about the essence of forgiveness too. I was in a discussion once with a group of Celtic pagans and we were wrestling with the notion of honoring ancestors since that is a focal point of Celtic religion. The problem was, what if you have an ancestor, such as a parent or grandparent who was absolutely horrid, or an abuser or something? What do you do? Some of us felt that we could forgive as a way of freeing ourselves from the chains of anger and pain we had. Others said that we can honor the lessons we learned from them about how *not* to be (good point) and thus honor them, and others said for them it was impossible to have anything but hate because the pain was so bad. It was a very useful exercise in exploring the notion of forgiveness and how it differs for people. I do believe forgiveness is like a balm and a gift one gives to oneself, and never forgetting the behavior keeps you protected and helps you to find a different path in your own life. :-) It's an issue I believe I always wrestle with, and there are certainly folks I forgive, but whom I no longer choose to associate with because I know the bad stuff will only happen again.

I always had a terrible problem with office gossip. At first, I had people who were sworn enemies of each other coming and telling me all the trash about each other because I was everyone's sympathetic listener who hid my own feelings. After a few years, it was me spreading trash because I thought it would win friends (making friends has always been difficult for me). Of course when it came to bite me on the ass a few times, I realized what an ass I was being myself, and now try to nip it in the bud or change the subject.

Very good discussion and also quite enlightening and helpful for you to bring it up! :-)

[chloe-amethyst.livejournal.com]

P.S. Please don't throw out your soapbox as you make terrific observations based on life experience and I'd love to learn more in future posts. :-)

[sildil]

LOL, now my turn to apologise! I didn't mean you were throwing tomatoes, I was just waiting for anyone else who thought they might!

But isn't that just a clear and pertinent point in itself about the dangers of what we write for public consumption?! What is a completely impersonal comment by one can be seen as a dig or criticism by someone else!

Yes, those first impression judgements! Trouble is, it's SO HARD when people fall straight into the trap of behaving exactly as you expected them to!!!

Oh, the views on forgiveness! REALLY interesting. I used to have real difficulty with the (christian) command to honour your father and mother. First of all, my real father and mother handed me over for adoption by paternal grandmother, so that was a bummer from the start, and secondly, paternal grandmother (now 'mum') was an emotionally abusive manipulating...person. So how was I supposed to do that? In the end I came to an understanding of what made all parties the way they were and forgave them, but it was a rough road for a while. And still..honouring them? Well, I guess undertanding where they came from is the closest I could get.

Oh I recognise that last paragraph too! Heh, been there, done that AND have the t-shirts!

:D <3<3<3

[deathangelgw.livejournal.com]

*laughs* oh yes, I've heard/done that sometimes myself. I'm always one for gossip...it's my one wicked side I think. The rest of my sides are just all flaws. ~_^

[sildil]

Heh, no, it's a special sooper dooper folding one!!!

[sildil]

LOL '...it's my one wicked side I think. The rest of my sides are just all flaws...'

I like that, I may quote you!!!

[tawarwaith.livejournal.com]

i could not agree more with you. It does seem to be part of human nature to delight in finding fault with others. Misery loves company, I guess.

Have no use for organised religion of any ilk these days, though I was once a very traditional, devout, Latin Mass Catholic girl. I found out how little such devotion was worth when I needed a divorce and was summarily rejected.

[karamarie-mckay.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, I know all about this. And, I know about the terror that can be induced by "I'll pray for you." Rick and I were on the receiving end of that for way, way too long.

Great post.

Kara

[sildil]

So often that's the case. As soon as you fall outside 'the norm', be it through divorce or sexuality or disability, whatever, then you are dumped. Sadly it's the people not the religion.

Oh yes, misery does love company, and jealousy and envy drives it too.

[sildil]

Hmmm yeah I can imagine! Thank you, all your commments are much appreciated as always :)

[nienna-weeper.livejournal.com]

Hoo boy/girl, nothing like religion talk to get the 'ol blood pumping...

Here's my 2 cents, in piccies:

[sildil]

Oh yes, absolutely! It's always good for a rant or two, or even if you are lucky a good discussion!

LOVE LOVE LOVE the pics, especially the second one! *Howls*

[deathangelgw.livejournal.com]

*bows and giggles*